[Frama-c-discuss] French slides to present Frama-C, value analysis and Jessie

DUPRAT Stephane STEPHANE.DUPRAT at atosorigin.com
Tue Feb 1 12:09:22 CET 2011


 Hello,

Thanks for this return of experience.
If it helps, here's my point of view about these remarks, which are from the side of an industrial user.


> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : frama-c-discuss-bounces at lists.gforge.inria.fr
> [mailto:frama-c-discuss-bounces at lists.gforge.inria.fr] De la
> part de David MENTRE
> Envoyé : mardi 1 février 2011 09:39
> À : Frama-C public discussion
> Objet : Re: [Frama-c-discuss] French slides to present
> Frama-C, value analysis and Jessie
>
> Hello Benjamin,
>
> 2011/2/1 MONATE Benjamin 205998 <Benjamin.MONATE at cea.fr>:
> > Thanks a lot for making your slides available: they provide
> a nice and precise overview of two plugins of Frama-C.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > What kind of remarks/questions did you get?
>
> Regarding Value analysis (also presented in another lesson):
> mostly questions regarding lack of precision on values,
> especially regarding loops (and "all programs are loops",
> quoting a participant). I talked about the skein analysis in
> Value analysis tutorial which is able to provide some
> interesting result and the use of -slevel. But I lack first
> hand practice on applying value analysis to large code. Is it
> a real issue on control code, for example?

Applying value analysis on the whole code of a large project is a strategy with very added-value, but the process could be very long and is not always a well controlled activity regarding the costs. It depends a lot of the analysed program.
An other strategy for industrial (or not) developpers is to apply value analysis on sub-components of the program during its development.
This strategy is possible thanks to the ACSL language that is able ot replace external component by their formal specification (in a restricted way, for the moment).
On the other hand, size of the subcomponents that are smallers make the analysis easier and faster. It is thus possible to work in an iterative way.
I'm personnaly convinced that use of value analysis is 1/ possible and 2/ adapted to different contexts and not only those of industrial and critical software.

>
> Regarding Jessie: "annotations have the same size as code!"
> and "what about error in annotations?". For the former
> remark, I could only tell that this was the price to pay to
> be able to *prove* code in all its generality. Regarding the
> latter remark, I told it would not be possible to prove the
> goals, but a was lacking convincing arguments.
> One of the attendee followed a lesson on code proof using a
> functional approach and PVS powerful tactics made by a
> researcher at INRIA Rennes (Thomas Genet) and told the
> approach was more powerful and simple. I answered that the
> discussion between the two approaches is still on-going. :-)

About the remark about the size of annotation:
Deductive proof is made for functional verification that are traditionnaly made by tests.
And we have to know that tests are larger thant source code. And formal specification are smaller thant tests scripts.
For the second remark, formal specification are specification that need a review.
We have to be care in case of using a lot of axiomatic and complex formal specification.

>
> Overall, I already asked for it but having some examples (or
> better an article that could be cited!) detailing how Frama-C
> is applied on some industrial code (size of code, most
> important issues and approaches used to work around them,
> results obtained) would be very useful.

I will try to export more concrete exemple.

Regards,

Stephane

>
> Sincerely yours,
> david
>
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