[Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Igor Stasenko siguctua at gmail.com
Fri May 6 16:01:30 CEST 2011


On 6 May 2011 07:11, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>> >
>> > On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>> >
>> > On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> >
>> > [Big Snip]
>> >
>> > Well said.
>> > Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with
>> > foreign libraries.
>> > Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you
>> > need to have knowledge
>> > in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you
>> > take any other pair of languages and try to
>> > connect them.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved
>> > in
>> > using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of
>> > FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers.
>> >
>>
>> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :)
>>
>> > As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but
>> > that
>> > it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I
>> > know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use
>> > non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am
>> > very
>> > preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all
>> > accounts.
>> > I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it
>> > introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools
>> > that
>> > allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing.
>> >
>> > However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such
>> > capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive.
>> >
>> > http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html
>> >
>> > """
>> > ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C
>> > compatible
>> > data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It
>> > can
>> > be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python.
>> >
>> > 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries
>> >
>> > ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for
>> > loading dynamic link libraries.
>> >
>> > You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects.
>> > cdll
>> > loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling
>> > convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall
>> > calling
>> > convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes
>> > the
>> > functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to
>> > automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call
>> > fails.
>> >
>> > Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard
>> > C
>> > library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling
>> > convention:
>> >
>> >>>> from ctypes import *
>> >>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS
>> > <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...>
>> >>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
>> > <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...>
>> >>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
>> >>>
>> >
>>
>> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo?
>> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python?
>>
>>
>> > """
>> >
>> > It has examples for windows and linux.
>> >
>>
>> I feel that you are seriously under-informed.
>> Just try googling for:
>>
>> Squeak + FFI
>> Alien
>>
>> NativeBoost
>>
>> and just check what you can do using it:
>>
>> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/
>>
>> also check mail archives.
>>
>> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look
>> for what you need by yourself?
>> Are google.com banned by your ISP?
>>
>> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information
>> (while being available openly) didn't catch your
>> attention , so you using python instead.
>> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to
>> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces).
>> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions
>> on mailing list, you will probably discover that
>> there is already work being done in that direction.
>
>
> Indeed, one thing FFI / Alien / NB don't have is a documentation as nice
> as http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html
>  in http://book.pharo-project.org/
> FFI / Alien / NB may be powerful, it seems I've never managed to do what I
> want, even with all mailing lists support (search mails on yaz / z3950 or
> id3taglib). In Python it works on OSX out of the box (I've just tried :)
>

Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries
you mention,
or you did it by yourself?

Here a first hit from google search:

http://lists.indexdata.dk/pipermail/yazlist/2002-May/000269.html

<quote>
I wrote these files for more than 2 years ago to play with SWIG and PERL, they
are far from being used, but I have just done a fast perl test and the results
were just fine.

zclient.c
zclient.h
zclinet.i  swig interface file

The zclient_wrap.c will be created as

 > swig -python zclient.i

which should be compiled and linked with the rest
</quote>

So? Do you think it was easy in first place to a guy who did it from scratch?
Now you can easily use it (and its just works out of the box). But it
is because someone did it before you!

And if you gonna repeat same from scratch, then you will have to learn:
 - C
 - SWIG
 - Python

so, do you still think that it easier to do that in Python than in Smalltalk?

> But when I was working with Python and Ruby several years ago things was
> easy (for my needs), I think because of documentation.
> Laurent
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.



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