[Pharo-project] glamour and pharo

Tudor Girba tudor at tudorgirba.com
Sun Jan 1 01:24:06 CET 2012


Hi Stef,

We are in the new year now, so the arguments can begin :).

On 31 Dec 2011, at 23:33, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> I looked at it and 

First, these seem to be a totally different set of arguments :). That is good.

> 		I do not like the magic of the block and arguments

There really is little magic. In fact, it is about the same as the magic of Morphic calling selectors with arguments.

> 		and the scripting aspects
> Veronica showed me that she does not use long scripts. 

I do not understand. You do not have to use long scripts unless you want them. If you look in the current code of most browsers, you will see that most methods are pretty small. So, this is not really an argument, either.

> Still I do not see how we extend browsers. We discussed that during the PhD meal at bern with lukas
> and I'm still not convinced. 

I am not sure what you are referring to.

> Now if people want to load glamour perfect. Now I do not have any spare cycles
> to maintain it. My plate is full.

I do not understand. You do not have to maintain it. It is already maintained.

> For now I would like to have a good way to build and reuse Morphic widgets not to 
> create another layer on top. 

Sure. Go ahead. This is most welcome.


Please understand that this debate started because you said it's sad that Alex would choose to work on top of Glamour for the Metacello browser. I simply would like to understand why you think it's so. To me, there does not seem to be a strong argument.

Doru


> Stef
> 
> On Dec 31, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Let's take this on the Pharo mailing list.
>> 
>> I do think that Glamour should be considered for being part of the Pharo infrastructure. At least the Core and the basic Morphic rendering (i.e., without Mondrian, EyeSee and Magritte).
>> 
>> And I also think your analysis is not accurate. Here is why (I apologize for the long list):
>> 
>> 1. Glamour is quite well documented. There is a chapter describing it. There are a tone of examples documenting all sorts of features. There comments are not as good as they could be, but there are comments, and I can help documenting more.
>> 
>> 2. It is quite well tested. This part can be improved, but the core has some 80% coverage.
>> 
>> 3. I am not the only one that knows how to mingle with it. To give some examples, Jorge, Damien (Cassou) and Esteban helped fixing some intricate bugs directly in the core. Lukas built the first Seaside rendering quite fast. I would also mention that as a student, Andrei Chis took about 1 month of work to produce a working version of a Seaside rendering almost from scratch. So, maybe it's not that difficult.
>> 
>> 4. The core is quite stable since more than 1 year. There were changes, but they were mostly related to bug fixes.
>> 
>> 5. The main point of using this infrastructure is not to replace Morphic, but it is to limit the maintenance of the browsers, and to empower more people to build more browsers. For example, the Glamorous Inspector has less than 200 lines of code in total. This is really tiny for the amount of things it offers. And it is highly extensible, too.
>> 
>> 6. It's actually not that large: the core has 36 classes, and if you consider all the other presentations, helper classes and specialized browsers (but without the rendering code), you get some 93 classes.
>> 
>> 7. But, perhaps the most important part is that there have been literally hundreds of browsers built on top of it. Not all of them are useful now, but they were when they were built. And it seems that people can build one quite fast without much knowledge of the internals either. That is the whole point of this infrastructure. Esteban even used it for building commercial applications. I built a couple, too. The whole of Moose is now using this infrastructure, too.
>> 
>> 
>> I am not saying that Glamour is perfect. There are quite a couple of things I would like to enhance (for example, the request ideas from Omnibrowser, or the wizard workflows from Merlin), but it has proved to be quite solid until now.
>> 
>> So, before dismissing Glamour, perhaps it would be useful to actually look into it.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 31, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Stef,
>>>> 
>>>> You seem to say that it is bad that Glamour provides a good infrastructure that appeals to people. Maybe a better conclusion is that Glamour is something to be considered for the infrastructure of Pharo.
>>> 
>>> Do you think so?
>>> I do not think that we can base our infrastructure on something that only one person understand and can modify.
>>> You will tell that this is the same for Morphic but this is not true.
>>> 
>>> Stef
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>> 
>> "Beauty is where we see it."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing should have the right to be different."






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